Breaking Barriers: Implementing Accessibility Policies and Learning Amid Organizational Resistance with Rebecca Prejean

Luis Malbas  
All right. Welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining us today, back at another TLD C event training, learning and development communities talent development event. And let's see, I see a few people popping into the room. There we go. There's Jan. And Gabby is back. Dan Smith. Trish is back to Lita, nice to see you, Erin. And just Yeah, yay, good, like good group, filling the room now. Thanks, everybody, for being here. Day two of our talent development event, it's kind of interesting. I've been talking to Rebecca, like back in the green room about the idea for this event, the fact that it's, you know, focused on talent development. And that, you know, we don't have as big of an audience as we typically do. I mean, we, you know, I mean, we've had, we had like an event this summer, where we had, like, 1500 people register, and I'd have to save this particular event, it's probably the smallest one we've done this year. So it's, it's just sort of, it's just an interesting observation. Like, with talent development, I thought that it would kind of be just wide in general, a lot of people would be like, yeah, I gotta check that out. But it's actually a really, really small group. And I think that it feels like a lot of the senior folks that have come to participate in this, in this event, understand the connection between learning and development and talent and development. But maybe not so much the case for folks that are just getting into the industry, but there is definitely a huge connection. And, and hopefully, once this event is wrapped up, and you see the sessions, as they're as, as from a holistic point of view, it'll, it'll be a lot more clear. But so thanks, everyone, for being here. And I am honored once again, to introduce our speaker, Rebecca Prejean. Who did I say that? Right?

Rebecca Prejean  
Close enough? It's praise John Prashant.

Luis Malbas  
Okay. I know there was a joke in there. So pretty John, Rebecca preys on. Rebecca is a seasoned Learning Experience Designer with extensive expertise in instructional design, content management and learning program development across diverse industries. She's known for ability to lead teams manage LMS implementation and create engaging visually compelling learning experiences. Using a learner centric approach. Rebecca has participated in at least a couple of our events over this last year, and you've been a fantastic, fantastic, active participant in the community, I'm so grateful that you are sharing with us. I know seems like it's regularly lately, Rebecca. So thank you so much for being here. And with that, I'm gonna go ahead and hide myself from the screen and let you take it away.

Rebecca Prejean  
From Well, thank you so much for having me. Again, I really do love this community. And I love what it brings to the learning and development space, which is ultimately important, right? So today, I'm not going to take up too much of your time. But I want to spend some time talking with everybody about how to overcome resistance to accessibility. When we as learning and development professionals really kind of get in the door and we start working and we start pumping out all of these amazing things, we inevitably find ourselves up against some resistance, even more. So when we start to talk about accessibility and neurodivergent learners, right? Because not everybody understands that they don't have the awareness of that they don't see it as a priority. And then it kind of falls on us to figure it out. And so today, I really want to just take some time, and talk about how we can figure those things out. But do it from a very strategic approach as opposed to more principled approach. And I do want to say, just for the record, I love principles. And I believe that things should have a purpose, I believe that the learning we create should have a purpose. The reality, however, is that a lot of leaders don't go and operate based off a principle. They operate off of concrete information, concrete facts. And sometimes I think that's a little bit of a gap that we have in terms of trying to advocate for the things we know our learners need. We know they want, right. So today, hopefully, the information I give you will try to bridge some of those gaps. And you know, give you some good tips and tricks as we move along. So anybody that has gone through any of my sessions knows I like to break things down in very simplistic ways. It's easier for me to process but it's also easier just to kind of have a good flow. So we're going to talk about how to understand the resistance. Where's it coming from? What drives it? Why is it even present? Because to those of us who understand neurodiversity, neuro divergence, we're like, it doesn't make a lot of sense. These are good things that we're trying to bring. We're trying to bring a lot of, you know, tangible value and benefit, right. So where is all this resistance coming from? Then we'll talk about just some tips and strategies that you can use to gather information and gain the buy in for accessible initiatives. Because really, that's what we want. And then we'll talk about how to craft your business case. And what key elements to focus on. Just so you know, in my mind, the business case is like the last thing that you would do, in terms of overcoming resistance. It's almost like you're baking a cake. Full disclosure, I am not a baker, I'm not a cook. Without a cookbook. None of those things are real to me. But what I do know is that for something to come out the way you want it to come out, you've got to actually bake it, it has to be cooked for a certain amount of time, like there's concrete things that need to happen. So before we get to talking about the business case, and what you should put in it, we're going to talk about, again, understanding everything that comes with it, and also kind of planning for what you want to put in that business case. My computer's having fun today. So let's start with understanding where it comes from. And why seems to thrive, despite all the positive elements that we know to be true, about neurodivergent learners, there are very few learning and development professionals that you're going to meet that don't believe in inclusive and accessible learning. In our community, we are fully fully bought into it. Others, however, are not. And some of that is because we interact with some of these learners, we see their struggles, and we are wired to kind of address those struggles and address those places. People in leadership, not necessarily always there, right. But that doesn't mean that we can't get them there, we just first have to understand where they may be coming from, and how to speak to those things. Okay, so I always like to start with psychology, because in essence, that is what drives a lot of our resistance. We're humans, our brains do things, we feel things, even if you know, you might see somebody that feels like they're like an emotional shell, they still have feelings, too. And so really, it's about the psychology of resistance. And once you start to understand that, you can start to really address some of the things that we see on a regular basis. So first and foremost, let's talk about the comfort zone, we all have a good comfort zone to some extent, unless we're trying to progress. We're trying to change some things, all that good stuff. But being in that comfort zone. Once somebody says, Well, let's take you out of that, let's move you past this comfort zone, let's put you into something new. Our brains automatically say I don't think so. I want to maintain the safety that I feel and the confidence that I feel in my daily role. So we all like feeling safe. We all like feeling confident, we all like feeling comfortable. That is how we are wired, our bodies love that we love to be in homeostasis, when we start talking about accessibility, adding new policies, changing things, even the I would say mid to you know, kind of lower level regular management, they can start to tell some things because then you're talking about additional directives, maybe you're talking about additional time, you're talking about additional money talking about additional resources. And so for them, it can drive them into a place of completely being taken out of their comfort zone. We also have an aversion to loss. That is the way that we work as humans we like to win. I mean, if you just look at kids softball, tee ball, then whatever sport you want to name, name, whatever activity you want to name, we we do what we do participation trophies, I know some people have their own opinions of it that's behind no judgment. The reality however, is that that makes people feel good. Getting a trophy winning, those are things that make us feel good. When we start talking about something that is unknown to us, is unfamiliar to us. We see sometimes the potential for risk, we see the potential for loss. And if you think about people in the C suite in an executive type role, they could be thinking of it more as a loss of productivity because they're just not well versed. They could be thinking again, loss of money, they could be thinking of loss of face or reputation. If their implementation doesn't go well. They can also be thinking about loss of position, and we'll talk about that a little bit more later. But they, in their minds, whether it's real or perceived, they feel like they could lose something. And so that creates a general aversion to kind of going down that pathway. Again, I'd rather stay with what I know, then try to do all these risks, and possibly lose some things that I feel are important to me. And then your brain has inertia, complex inertia, which drives us to maintain that status quo and remain in homeostasis. So it's very similar to the comfort zone. When we talk about this. It's more in it kicks in when we try something new. And your body is again saying, Why are you doing this new thing? So we all know, we're about to go into New Year's, we, a lot of us anyway, me included, have New Year's resolutions, mine always seems to be centered around that last 10 pounds from the baby that was born like seven years ago, been trying to do it for years, still hasn't happened. But when I try it, you know, I might be good for a little bit. But my body at some point wants to go back to the way that it was like, Hey, do I really want to build in this routine for the gym? Why can I just maybe still do this over here that I usually do. That's a natural thing that our brains do. doesn't make it right doesn't make it wrong. But again, your brain, our brains are wired to stick with what we know, because it feels comfortable. So when you start to put this into the context of accessibility, and implementing these different things, it's no wonder that you get that resistance because people aren't really aware, they're not really understanding what we're trying to bring. It's just an abstract concept. And abstract concepts tend to be a little bit scary for us as people when we don't understand them.

You may also be coming up against additional factors. So again, things like lack of awareness, perceived risk, just a fear of the overall unknown. And like I mentioned a moment ago, fear of a loss of position. So if I'm an executive or manager, and I'm not aware, I'm not well versed in this neurodivergent accessibility land, that means somebody else has to take the lead. And if you're a type A person, such as myself, that is anxiety provoking, to think that I will now have to give the reins possibly to somebody else. And I don't really know how to process that it brings a lot of different things. So can be fear of the unknown, but also fear of just control, loss of control can be technology, technology, concerns about price complexity, will the systems we currently have in place be able to support this? If they can't, what does that mean? In essence, does that mean that we have to go buy something? Do I need a hiring expert for this? How do I execute it? All of these things are real and also stereotyping and misconceptions are real. I say it all the time. The people in my life who are neurodivergent are gifts. They are gifted, and they are fantastic. But even I noticed that people have very stereotypical views of these amazing folks. Case in point, my son is seven is anybody who has, you know, attended any of my sessions knows, my seven year old son is autistic. I think that he is everything, like he is amazing. He is gifted, he is incredible. Um, the other day, somebody actually, no lie, told me that he was a curse. And he was given to me in this condition, as they called it, because of just other things. And they were talking about, he's slow. He's this, he's that. And as a mother, obviously, that got some response from me. But that also helped me to see just how strong stereotypes are. For folks who are neurodivergent there are perceived ideas about their intelligence, their value in those kinds of biases, those kinds of feelings. They can be pervasive. And they can ultimately affect how people view including accessibility into a workplace into a culture because they don't really have the buy in that those people are even worth are worthy of getting the same benefits and getting the same opportunities. So when we talk about things like this, these additional factors, these resistance factors, as I will call them, I want you to think that they are coming from 100 different places. And in essence, it's not. It's not on us as l&d professionals to completely, always empathize with whatever people feel, everybody's entitled to their feelings and their thoughts. That's not really what we need to focus on. What we have to focus on is how to speak to some of these things. And try to allay those fears. Some things we might never be able to allay somebody's personal bias about neurodivergent people, we may never be able to relay that that is something that is a lifelong journey that only they can deal with. But there are other things that we can do other things that we can address, like the lack of awareness, perception, fear, you know, concerns about technology, those things we can speak to, but it's still important to know about the other things. So that number one, you know how to kind of maybe handle it, if that comes your way. And maybe you're presenting a business case, and you hear something like that, it's important to be prepared for how to process that because it really can bring some strong emotions. But it's also important to remember every corporation is different. So part of your role as an l&d professional, is really to learn your organization, and learn what they value. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. You may also come up against office politics. We all love it. Probably not. But you all experience it. If you are in any organization, any company, you there office politics, even in startups that say, we're one big happy work family, we love one another. We're all super happy and super grand. That is not how that always works. Sometimes it is a straight up facade. And technically, that's okay, too. I don't necessarily I'll I'll just be honest, I'm very laid back. People can have their office politics, I'm not really there to play around with that. I'm just here to learn how to navigate through some of that, so that I can get my learner's what they need. So when you think about office politics, I want you to think about even things like culture, especially when you think about startups. startup culture, is what it's really relaxed. It's supposed to be really welcoming all of these things, right. But so often, they're moving so fast, and they're trying to just be part of a certain demographic sometimes that they forget some of the just basic tenets of good talent development, such as inclusion of neurodivergent learners. And so when you think about culture, you need to also think about what your work culture is, I worked in a startup, it really was like a odd camping type of family, it's very different. But the one thing I can honestly say, is that they were really not champions of inclusion, in almost any way, shape, or form. And it wasn't because they were bad people. It was because they were focused on other things. So you need to learn about the culture that you're in, so that you can figure out where are the places that I might be able to wait a little bit and get some buying, get some actual engagement going. Alignment with organizational strategies, influence because again, in certain corporations, depending on what that structure looks like, various specific individuals may have more influence than others. And depending on what those views are for that individual, they may be the ones driving the ship away towards accessibility. So in some ways, that would be somebody you might want to focus on, because you want those influencers to eventually buy into what you're selling. Essentially, silos are also a problem in organizations. And I will actually point out silos can be problematic on several levels for l&d professionals, but especially when we're talking about accessibility, because in some organizations, and I've worked at a few of these, you will have different training, processes, developments, all of these things for different departments. So you might have 20 departments, and all of them have their own training process their own training guides, their own training thoughts. And that's going to do nothing for accessibility, because then the only real All thing that's there, is hoping that 20 Different people in these 20 different departments know about accessibility. And so silos can actually be a huge barrier, because that is something that it's hard to break in tradition, and things like that, and culture. So knowing all of these things will really kind of help you. I know it sounds very gloomy. Like there's all this resistance, how in the world? Am I regardless of your position, right? How am I supposed to break through any of this, especially, I like to talk to designers a lot. And I like to talk to just Learning and Development Coordinators, trainers, people who create the things, because sometimes we don't feel like we have the pool, we don't feel like we have the power. But we do. Sometimes it's on us to be a little bit more bold, and to push a little bit. And that I say that even as a freelancer. I've worked in corporate America transitioned into freelance after I lost both of my jobs within the span of a week. Fun fact, it will be almost Well, it's been almost 12 months since that happened, lost both of my jobs in one week. And then just completely said, Fine, I'll just freelance forever. And I can honestly say that I've learned a lot during that time about needing to push a little bit on your clients and push a little bit on your management, not be obnoxious, but push them in a positive direction towards the things that we know are right.

So let's talk about how to do some of that. Let's talk about some strategic planning. And like I said, it can be hard sometimes, if you are a designer, or you don't think that you have that, that pool, or that's not your place to be, which we might think sometimes. But it's okay to think that. But you almost have to supersede that fear to think about your learners and advocate for them because they you are their voice within talent development within HR within l&d, you're their voice? Yes, they might say certain things, yes, they may come to us, and ask for things. But ultimately, we are the ones that stand in the gap for them, and actually champion the things that they need. So something I do like to employ a lot is network and sponsorship. Networking, will be key in overcoming resistance. This does involve you identifying people in the organization that share your passion for accessibility, or even somebody who shares your passion for inclusion. Because those are folks who are going to be like, Yeah, let's collaborate, let's come up with some ideas. That can be a manager that can be disregarded, or coworker, you have all of these opportunities right now that are out there. A lot of companies have resource groups. If you look at some of those resource groups, you don't always see a lot of talk about accessibility or neuro divergence, you definitely see groups for like parenting, you see some groups for you know, people of color, things like that. But when it comes to accessibility neurodivergent that's not necessarily what you see. But we have the opportunities to create those groups. Some people have councils that are the EI councils, they talk a lot about color, bipoc, all of these things. But we're not sometimes pulling that lever and leveraging that into championing for accessibility. So sometimes it becomes really important for us to look at the existing pillars that are in our company, and not just look at them, like maybe they've been presented, but look at them as an opportunity for us to maybe push something that we know is right into the forefront, because people really do want to know about this stuff, guys. I was shocked when I went to deadline that presented. I was shocked by the number of people that were in that room listening to me, because I'll be honest, I'm a true introvert at heart. So I was shocked by the number of people who were in that room. But I was also shocked by the aftermath. The people who came up to me asked about information some people who were in companies that were like, I don't really do a lot of accessible neurodivergent learning are talking and I wanted to come here about this because I'm hearing things you know about this topic. I just don't know anything to help people so people want this information. But it's important for us to identify people engage folks that can be key stakeholders for us. And be proactive about accessibility, proactive in using the resources that our companies give us in the time they give us. And then also leveraging the possibility of executives, I know this isn't always possible, no judgment. But again, it's about being open to that possibility and kind of stamping down some of our fear. To be an advocate. If you see an executive or a manager, even who is really big about inclusion, your listening to them in meetings, sometimes we're meetings with them all day, several times a week, if you hear them, and you're like, Kylie, this sounds like somebody who's all about inclusion, I'm loving it, I'm feeling it. Why not reach out to that person, we have coffee chats all the time, on LinkedIn, with people who we don't really even know. And sometimes we don't want to have a quick meeting in a environment that says that we're open door, you know, we want to get to know you. It's taking advantage of those opportunities to network with the possible people that can help us get accessibility where it needs to be.

Awesome to talk about managing up. So you hear this a lot in leadership development training. We hear it a lot when we talk about leadership development for non leaders. But managing up is also a way that we can overcome resistance, because it's about learning people, it's about learning what they need, learning what they want. So I'm sure most of us here, hopefully, maybe have purchased a car, maybe not in the last few years, because prices are weird. But most of us have gone on to a lot dealt with a car salesman. And from the minute you step on that lot, what are they doing, they are getting to know you, they are getting to know your needs, your wants, how you talk, what kind of thing you have going on in your family, all of these things. I'm sure they're nice people. But they also mainly want to sell you something, they want you to leave the lot with the car, for a multitude of reasons. We should do the same with those that are above us. If we're not in leadership. If you we are in leadership, the people that are executives, we need to start managing up for accessibility. Understanding your leadership's priorities, and the whys behind them, what drives their decisions? Are they all about money? And when I say that, I mean, do they look at costs a lot? Do they look at productivity a lot? What things kind of, I don't wanna say trigger them? But what things kind of drive their decision making processes? Like what do they seem to be really focusing on when a new initiative comes up? Those are things you need to know. So that when you are gathering your data, when you are thinking about training initiatives for Accessible Learning, you can speak to that. So if you've done your research, and you know what their priorities are, you can say, we can build an accessibility and it will get us this and it speaks directly to that need, that that leader may have. We also need to learn their language and speak it. Not literally necessarily, but definitely figuratively. And it goes back to again, learning about them, learning about all of them, necessarily all of the things that they think about that they find important, and that they thrive on. And you also have to be flexible with it. So I'm saying that for one leader, and it will probably be that way where they're like, Well, I look at this, I look at time I look at costs, I look at access, it can be completely different for a different leader. And depending on what the company objectives may be, you may have to realign or kind of flex your thought process a bit. And what I mean by that is not completely doing away with accessibility, because maybe it's not on the company's radar. What I mean by that is, okay, so the company has this new objective, they have this new idea that they want to do. This doesn't necessarily align with what I originally envisioned for my accessibility dream. But let me flex my mind a little bit and figure out how I can now function with these objectives that they have, and how I can still get accessibility where I want it to be eventually, sometimes these things are slow rolls, folks. We may not get all the accessible learning that we want at one time. We may not get all the accessible inclusion that we want at one time, and that's okay. Sometimes it's going to be a slow progress because you Again, people are resistant to change, and sometimes you have to ease them into it. But that's part of where flexibility comes in, being able to stop and say, Okay, so this is happening, A is happening. Now I need to go to plan B, because now I need to shift a bit, that's perfectly okay. There's nothing in any books anywhere, I hope not in any way that anybody's written. That say you have to advocate and get accessible learning in one specific way, form or fashion. Obviously, we want everything to be inclusive and accessible. But even getting small bits of that, that we can pull in from over time, can really help our learners. And that's really where we have to focus our attention. I know I have people here that love data and feedback. And this is probably your favorite place to live. This is important for overcoming resistance. So again, it's also pulling those levers of existing things. Most companies have what they have satisfaction surveys now for their employees, maybe a couple times a year, maybe once a year, but they usually have these feedback surveys, and you know, employee experience teams that are designed to speak to this stuff. This is also where networking comes in. Because if you've built those relationships with human resources, and other people, guess what, you can now leverage those relationships and say, Hey, I know we have that employee satisfaction survey coming up. Can you throw just one question on there about accessibility? Maybe two, if you're really good friends, doesn't have to be anything comprehensive, like a full list of questions, the main thing that you want from this, you want to get feedback, right? So you can have an open ended question. But you also want to start to be able to have real concrete evidence that you can pull from when you're making your business case. So everything that we're doing in this strategic area is really designed so that we can speak to it when we actually have that moment to shine. And say, these are the things that we did. These are the things that we tried. This is the feedback we're getting from learners, from employees in general. And this coupled with all of these things, is why we should do Accessible Learning, or inclusive learning. Right? So it's really laying the foundation is what we're doing. I hear a lot of people ask about how do I make a business case, this is how you make a business case, folks, you have to lay the foundation because again, principle isn't always going to get us there. And I hate that. But it's the truth. Some people are just wired for wanting concrete facts and evidence. I am not that because I am super artsy. So for me, the abstract world is a playground. But for others, like my family members, for example, who are very different from me, they like facts, they like to see where things are coming from why things are important. And they want to see that there's a real need for this, that will actually kind of make them pivot. So the main crux of what we're really talking about today is learning how to lay your foundation, how to make allies and actually network with people within your organization who share those same values, and can identify different places that we can start to build in accessibility, little by little, but you know, over time, if need be, because it's not a race to the finish. Sometimes it's just truly building, you know, like a house, and making sure that whatever you do, the foundation is completely solid.

And last, let's talk about what happens now that you have these relationships. You may or may or probably at this point, have some buy in from your networking, your allies, maybe your sponsorship, and you have that data to kind of show, hey, people want this something else I forgot to mention about data. I've said it in a few other places before, you can still get data as a learning and development professional by just building in a few accessibility things that are fairly quick and easy. Like if you're creating or in charge of creating an E learning, add some closed captions in there. It's probably the simplest thing that we can do in most cases. And it's something that we can then present in a survey form to the people that are taking the learning. So don't forget being proactive means being proactive and all areas, it's being proactive with others. But it's also being proactive with your projects and the things that you can control within your hands to get information and to gather information that you can mined from later. But like I said, you really can't get to this point with the business case, without knowing how to prove value, and provide clarity around your new admission initiative. In my mind, the business case is pretty much your letter to leadership. So it needs to be framed in a way that they can understand. And that's where you know, kind of getting and doing that data over cognizance is important. Again, nice to speak the same language as your key decision makers. And this is, again, why I say mentioned a lot, this stuff can take time. Because you've got to really get to know people. And I'm not saying that you have to become best friends with them. It's not that's not the case. And that's really not the goal necessarily. But you do need to know about them. You need to know how they think, and how they operate and how they flow, if you want this to ultimately work out in your favor. So your business case is really going to focus on five key areas, scope, your stakeholders, legality, quantification, and demonstration. So I always use these five and the business cases I present, because they're the simplest to break down. And they're usually the easiest to get information for. So when you think about scope, I want you to think about knowing the true scope of the initiative that you're asking for. We can't just come to somebody and say, I want everything to be accessible. Obviously, yes, we want that. But it has to be more concrete, it has to be more specific. And you really do have to center on a very specific initiative. So maybe it's, we have leadership development training coming up, I want this to be an accessible experience. So I want to add alt text, and I want to add closed captions, or, you know, anything along those lines really is okay. But it needs to be something very specific when you're doing this, so that you can talk about the scope of this, and make it something that is digestible for regular people. So knowing what platforms you want to use, knowing the products, you know, knowing the terms, and conditions, all of that stuff is going to be important for your scope. And you need to be able to speak to that directly to the people that you're going to be in front of in terms of stakeholders, again, you have to be more specific about what we're doing and intentional. So instead of saying, I want to add accessibility for all of our learners, which again, speaks to me on a real level, because I'm like, that's how it should be, you're speaking to a different type of audience. So instead of saying, I want it for everybody, I want it for learners who are maybe autistic, or have ADHD, because that is something digestible. And it's something that the brain can target and can process. Again, I'm not saying these are my personal beliefs, I believe that it should be for all. But when you're talking and presenting to a specific audience, you have to know your audience, whatever audience that may be, and you have to talk to them in a very direct way that they can understand it, we kind of come out of that equation at that point. And it's what we have to do to get our folks what they need. I say talk about legality, and you should, and we have to, because it's a real thing. I always caution people don't make this the crux of your argument, because if legalities, were, you know, a true driving force. Everybody would have accessibility in their learning. People are concerned about legal ramifications, but for some reason that doesn't move the needle. And sometimes it doesn't move the needle because number one, they don't know about the consequences. Or they think they're already compliant. That kind of thing. So when we talk about legalities here, it can't just be this is legally required. So you need to do it. And this, I mean, it's just legal stuff. We have to say, it's legally required. We're not following a B, C, and D that is required of us. And as a result, X y&z can happen. So it shows them the actual path and trajectory that can happen. If you know these legal things aren't met, then we have quantification. So quantifying the benefits like said beyond legality, and for Neuro divergence, it can be user experience, it can be market reach, it can be increased productivity. It can be saturate, it can be retention, right, which is really important right now, it can also be increased revenue, which is super important right now, we are still seeing tons of companies that most of us never thought would see a layoff. We're seeing that and we're seeing it in real time. And so if you're thinking about presenting a business case, to anybody right now, anything that you can talk about in terms of retention, productivity, or even market success, revenue, would probably really hit them in an important way. Because that's where a lot of them are focused right now. And again, we have to touch where their focus as opposed to where we want to be right. There my screen. I feel like it did. Okay. No worries, though. And then we need to do a demonstration. So demonstrating success. And that can be again, with the data. Of course, it was still there, just me and my screen. So we need to be able to demonstrate what this means and what this could look like. So I work with a lot of visionaries, is what I like to say.

They can think about really big ideas, they can think, really big. But sometimes it's hard for them to just kind of whittle it down and think about a result. So I'll have people have literally had somebody asked me in the last few weeks to create like a video game within a month. And I'm like, That's not real. But I know they come from a good place, because they're visionaries. And so they dream big, they think big. But when it comes to practicality and what things might look like at the end, or how you get there, they're not really sure they're just like, go go make this thing. And so when we talk about demonstrating the effects of accessibility, I want you to think about showing them either through your success and your data that you've collected, or even through another company's success, what adding accessibility and learning can do for them, and for their people. And in the past, when I've done another company, shamefully, I've used a competitor, who I knew was using accessible functions, and accessibility, you know, throughout their learning, nothing strikes you better than a little bit of healthy competition, maybe a little bit of jealousy. So don't recommend that for everybody. But it does work to some extent, because it starts to show them Oh, so if they're in the same space, and they're doing the things that you're talking about doing and they're seeing this return on the investment, then maybe we need to do the same. Because we're not getting the same results, we're not getting that same traction. Again, you can also use your own data. So if you have been building in little bits of accessibility, and maybe you've been doing pre testing, and post testing, and feedback surveys, and all of these things, you then have concrete evidence that you can provide, have. So this is what we've been doing. And this is the success that we're seeing. This is what our teams are seeing, this is what they're saying. And it's resulting in this benefit for the company. It gives us again, a concrete thing to look at, as opposed to abstract. And that's really, really important. We've got to move from that abstract world that a lot of us live in and move it to something very concrete, especially when we're talking about talent development, and advocating for those who essentially we service. I always tell people who are coming to me for instructional design stuff, you know, like training and things to be instructional designers. We are another form of support and service. And I worked in a cubicle when I was younger for like almost a good seven years. So I know about some support. And in reality, that's what we are, but we support just a different subset of people. We support employees. We support managers, we Supporting internal clients, as opposed to external clients. And so when you start to look at it like that, it shifts your mindset a little bit from, I want this thing to, I want this thing for these people, and I'm willing to do these things to get them the resources, they need to be successful. Because at the end of the day, that's really what good support is. And that's really what we are. We're not order takers. We are folks who are persuasive. We are salespeople. And we are here to get our learners what they need. I hope everybody agrees with that. Because I fully fully believe in that, subscribe to that. So couple of things for everybody. If you happen to have questions, you're always welcome to reach out to me, my LinkedIn is in my profile, I believe on aremy as well. But I'm gonna post some additional resources on LinkedIn, on the 11th. So Monday, so I have like a business case template, some ways to identify allies, and some proactive tips to engage stakeholders, because if you're like me, I'm a designer by nature, I'm a visual artist, by nature, I am very introverted. And it took a lot for me to start to become proactive. And I wasn't even sure where to start with that. It's like, I know what I should do. But I'm not really sure how to do it. So I'll provide some additional things for that, as well. But questions, comments, thoughts? I'm open to hearing them.

No, thank you for joining.

Luis Malbas  
So Rebecca, I do have a question. Do you ever have to? Or do you build longevity into initiatives into you know, accessibility inclusion, inclusive initiatives? Like, what's your strategy for that? And I know, I'm just asking, because I know that I've had experience where, you know, some programs have been implemented, but then it just kind of it fizzles out.

Rebecca Prejean  
And that happens a lot. But to me, that's where that networking comes in. And that's where that foundation comes in. Because if you've taken the time to build the foundation, and you've built it the right way, even if it may not happen overnight, you'll have longevity, because you'll have people who actually believe in it, but are also active and engaged in it. So what ends up happening with initiatives that fizzle out whether it's in accessibility, or in anything else, like the EI, it's because people stopped engaging, right? And so that's why you have to build in that engagement at the beginning. So you essentially have a network to pull on, and you know where to go. So I know my allies. And as people start changing, because we know that we live in a place where layoffs happen, where all changes happen, you have to constantly be looking for new allies, way recruiting, it's like you have to be a constant advocate, which sounds completely overwhelming to some people. But it's a necessity. Yeah, that's this isn't something that's a one off, this is something that it's a commitment. Yeah, it's a commitment. And you have to be consistent in that commitment.

Luis Malbas  
I guess it would be it probably be worthwhile trying to build something like that into a timeline and just ensuring that you, you keep it covered as you as you progress through all of it. Okay, no, that's good. That's good. Let's see, I'm not seeing any questions. Oh, here we go. Here's one from Ivan, let me show this on stage. Any luck using certain external research or case studies is proof that accessibility is worth it? Or does leadership generally need to see surveys feedback from inside their own org?

Rebecca Prejean  
I love that question. Because it's a valid question. It's a real question. And what I will say is this, I've had experience with both. And I would say in general, with my clients in particular, it's been a mixture of both that has really kind of pushed them over. So they want to see external stuff. Like they like to see case studies. They like to see that information. There's always those personalities that love that. But then you're also going to have those folks sitting in that meeting with you who are like well That's fine and dandy, but this company has a different culture than we do. So how do we know that that's going to translate from that culture over to AWS. And that's where that insider information comes in. So part of this world that we're talking about is really putting together and coalescing several different things to cover an entire spectrum. Which is why in my mind, people feel like getting the buy in for accessibility can be difficult, because it's like, well, I showed you this. So why aren't you buying in where I showed you this? And it really does take a collection of things in information and data to get that by, as well as that persistence that we talked about.

Luis Malbas  
Is it always the business case that that kind of pushes it? Like,

Rebecca Prejean  
in the end? Yeah, to me, it's the business case. Because I mean, that's where you sometimes get the money, or whatnot. So maybe if it's a startup that doesn't necessarily have a lot of money, a ton of money. That's where you end up getting that money for that software on that you want, especially if we're talking about closed captions, right? It's where you get all of the things that help us build accessibility. So maybe somebody that doesn't have articulate somebody that doesn't have Canva, or Adobe, or whatever. That business case ends up saying, hey, I can confidently give you this amount for right now. See what you can do with it. And I believe once you give me a little bit, I'm gonna rock it out, so that you give me more money. Really, it's it's just like freelancing, and consulting, in my mind. Interesting.

Luis Malbas  
All right. Here's one from Chrystia. Can you share an example of an accessibility initiative you've seen, implemented and managed to create some perception change and leadership to be more receptive to accessibility? Yes,

Rebecca Prejean  
I actually did that want to say six months ago, I was working with a major company, fortune 500 company. And they told me, we've never had any kind of accessibility built into any of our trainings, which floored me, because this is a household name. This is not like some Mom and Pop thing. And so what I said to them at first is, so let's build in some accessibility. Let's see how that works. And I asked him, Do you have any data? Do you have any information? But yeah, we have like some random survey from like, five months ago, that we took, asked a little bit about accessibility and what people want to see. So what I ended up doing was a created an accessibility pathway, I would say for them. So we created a timeline about where we could access accessibility, how long that would take, maybe flush it out into a more cohesive process. And I think it was about a year to a year and a half total, that that timeline was, but for the first part of it, it's like, let's just implement small, I believe closed captions, alt text is always the way to go if you want to start off small and get a really good return on investment. And it didn't take me significantly longer than it would have normally. Now, full disclosure. Part of that is because I've been doing it for a long time. But I also didn't charge them a whole lot either, okay, because for me, I'm like, I would rather get this perception change. And then we'll talk later about needing to charge and things like that, like this is the most important part of where they came back to me. They saw what I created. They saw the program, they saw the timeline, they actually showed it to their CEO, and their CFO. And when it came down to looking at the cost, even though I did tell them accessibility usually cost more. But it costs time and benefits after they actually did a feedback survey on that training program. It shifted everything. It was remarkable how much has shifted. And it was just from doing those things they actually started to and I checked in with them maybe about two or three months ago. Now all of their training that they've built, going forward has accessibility and not just closed caption. And it's not just all text, it's images, is layout. It is like the whole thing, because they saw just by a couple of little changes, how much better and how much more productive, how much happier. Their people were like they got so much positive feedback with what they told me. And obviously I was happy about it in terms of eternal education, Yeah, I always feel like there's additional education that's needed. And I built that in usually, to my freelancing. And so, for me, I'll create like a quick elearning course, I'll create one shaders, but things that I'm praying for timelines. And if I'm being fully honest, so that's also ways if you are freelancing, because I know sometimes we have freelancers in here, we're thinking about freelancing, those are ways that you also build long lasting client relationships. So some of the clients I have, I've had for a couple of years at this point. They call on me pretty often. But sometimes it's not even for like a full project. Sometimes it's about accessibility. And how can we measure things or we're seeing this, we don't know how to do that. So sometimes, it's just as simple as giving them one sheet of the system, giving them infographics, just as simple as maybe creating a quick course and rise. We know that that's a pretty easy, you know, give to do a rise course, that doesn't have to be super crazy, you know, elaborate. So sometimes just us figuring out what is a simple way for me to get you the information is a win for accessibility, because they'll have that elearning stuff in their LMS. They can go back to it whenever they can send it to whoever they want. Yeah,

Luis Malbas  
yeah. That's great. Excellent. All right. Well, thanks, Rebecca, this fantastic session. Really, really wonderful. I did post your, your LinkedIn URL in the in the chat area. So everyone, please make sure that you follow Rebecca there. And I guess we're all going to be waiting for some additional resources on Monday. Yes, hey, weekend. Exactly. All right. And with that, I'm gonna go ahead and close out this session. Thanks, everyone, for being here. And again, Rebecca, thank you again for participating and helping support our community. Always love having you as a guest, and have a great weekend and we'll see everybody in the next one. We have a I guess a two hour break because we don't have Nicole starting till I think 11 pacific time and I guess that'd be to Eastern. So just two more sessions today. And and that'll be it for for this year. So thanks, everybody.