Community Showcase: Liz Stefan

Luis Malbas  
All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the training, learning and development community. Thanks for joining us. I know we have a couple of folks already live in the audience. We've got venni. And we've got Aditi Sharma joining us, and I'm sure that more folks will roll in is that our invite just went out to all of the followers on Chromecast Crowdcast. So hopefully, we'll see some more live faces in there. But thanks for joining us, everyone. We haven't done a member showcase in a while. Last time I sent a member showcase invite out was last year and I only got I think maybe like three or four replies, but this time, I received Gosh, at least like 20 something or so and so like basically, we have showcases all through August already taken up the calendar. I'm very excited about that. Because I love meeting new people in the community and introducing everyone to each other. That's a huge part of what TL DC does. And so today we have Liz, Stefan, am I pronouncing that correct, Stefan?

Liz Stefan  
Stefan, but

Luis Malbas  
okay, yeah, and here with us from nifty learning, and also the the host of the l&d Spotlight podcast, which looks like a great podcast that was I listened to a few well, parts of a few episodes over the last few days, just to get a feel for what you're doing. And it's a fantastic podcast, congrats on that. And we have lots of questions

loaded up in our q&a area to talk to ask Liz about so. So Liz is co founder, and is it CEO of nifty learning? Yes. Co Founder and CEO nifty learning has been around since what 2017 2016?

Liz Stefan  
Well, it depends how you count it. stealth mode about two years, but more significantly, let's say 2019. Okay,

Luis Malbas  
okay, that works. Curious about the name though. Nifty learning. Where did that go? Nifty is? Yeah, how did you come up with that name?

Liz Stefan  
So this is probably the the first question a lot of people have asked. I'm not a native English speaker. But I did learn it passionately. And I'm more of an old fashioned kind of person. And I know that nifty is a kind of old timey sort of word. The way I describe it to people, or what it's supposed to signify is, I want people to think of our platform, kind of like a grandpa would look at the phone and a smartphone and would be like, Hey, this is pretty nifty. It does all of these things. I can speak to my grandparents and grandkids, I can take photos, I can do so many things shopping list. And so you know. So this is kind of the spirit of the naming the point being that I want us to be flexible and to services, you know, many people as possible in the best way possible.

Luis Malbas  
That's fantastic. I have some questions that are that are related to that. And everyone if you have any questions for Liz, during this conversation, feel free to add them to the QA section, you should see a little box with a little dialog box with a question mark in it. If you jump in there, you can see the questions that I've already come up with for Liz. And we're just going to start getting into this now. Because we have about 30 minutes. And and I don't know about 10 questions or so. So. So Liz, I know that you worked for Xerox and and then you also did some you were working for an IT company for a while. But what inspired you to become a learning professional? And how did you how did you get started in the field.

Liz Stefan  
So um, I actually studied architecture, I have a master's in architecture and urban planning. And I did not plan to end up in learning and development. It was more of an accident when Xerox was was recruiting, they were looking for German speakers for something in whatever BPO thing they were doing. I applied because they told us they would send us to Barcelona for two weeks for training. So for me that was amazing as a fresh graduate, and I was I didn't have any plans to actually be an architect at that point in time. And it happened and when that when they recruited me, they also looked at my voluntary experience and actually was part of an educational NGO with a focus on STEM students. And I had done learning and development during my studies, but I didn't know it. We were creating basically courses for STEM students on various topics, working together with the Technical University. They saw that they said I think you're better suited in training and development. I said, Sure, why not? And I was very excited but also very scared to be honest. Bentley's thrown into very complex learning and development processes for a professional services company in the UK, one of the big four. My first question was, how am I going to teach people how to do all of these processes if I've never learned the art myself, and they said, you'll be fine if you'll figure it out. And I immediately started doing what I now know is instructional design, depth training, delivery, facilitation, and also doing a part of Performance Management, which is checking for knowledge, retention, and effectiveness of the training delivered. And that happened, I did that for about a year, and then my career started expanding.

Luis Malbas  
That's amazing. I don't think I've ever had a guest here, one that went from studying architecture, and then going to instructional design, that one is really unique. And then also, it amazes me how many times I've heard that where people are doing the work of an instructional designer, and don't even realize it until later until they've actually gotten, you know, a lot of experience doing the work. And they're like, oh, wait, this is this is actually a career called instructional design. So that's, that's, that's pretty interesting. Before you started out in l&d, like if you could go back to yourself, and have a conversation, what do you wish you had known before you started out? Is there anything you would have liked to have told yourself?

Liz Stefan  
I think because I was fresh out of university, I had the same sort of impression that if it looks like school, that's what learning must be in your professional life. And I've discovered meanwhile, after being in this space for, I guess, 11 years now, that it's not that and if you really want to have a strong focus on learning transfer retention application, in practice of all the knowledge that people acquire, you have to note some things maybe about neuroscience, maybe about behavior, adoption, maybe about business objectives, and what businesses actually hope to achieve through their learning strategy. So maybe understanding a little bit more the positioning of a learning and development professional, and what specifically what goals they should have. That would have been cool to have like a crash course. And you're here because you need to deliver this and this business goals. Not particularly because you're supposed to design a pretty PowerPoint or anything like that. Another thing is, um, maybe even the maybe I would have liked to understand more about adult learning principles. So during our university, is we actually had the option to specialize in ironically in pedagogy. But the way it was taught in university, it was very children focused. So there was no notion of how to teach for adults. I did get a certificate in training from like the, from the European Union, but it was like a three day thing. So I didn't actually have proper concept of why adults acquire knowledge, what they do with it, motivation, attention, and so on. So that might have been also very good to know more about how people learn why they do it, and how it happens in the workplace context.

Luis Malbas  
How did you gain that knowledge afterwards? Where did where did you gain that knowledge about, like, you know,

Liz Stefan  
frankly, so it was a crash course in learning how to teach my peers basically, some of those people were actually much older than me when they were getting hired than doing the work. So it was just empirical, you know, figuring it out while doing it.

But this is also something that led to the podcast existing l&d Spotlight, the one of the main reasons I started is because I realized how little I knew about learning and development. And I wanted to get to as many sorts of experts or people who have, you know, have some have some battle scars. And I want them to tell me what it was like, what they learned, how they succeeded, what they failed that and so on, because I think this is the most,

I guess, effective, one of the most effective ways that I learned. Just, I want to hear how it was for you. And I want to try to contextualize that for myself so that I can actually, you know, get the good practice examples, show or stay away from the bad things and so not make the same mistakes and so on.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you that question. Like why why did you start your podcast, but you just answered it and that is actually a great reason to start a podcast. I mean, you know, I've told people before, if you want to learn more about l&d, or just like network or do anything like that, just starting a podcast is a great way to do it. I mean, heck, start another T LDC or start a community. And you'll end up connecting with lots of people out there and learn more about this industry, this space. And but of course, you have to have the time and energy to be able to do all of that stuff, which isn't exactly easy to come by nowadays. So now that you, you know, you're the CEO of your company. Nifty learning has been around for a little while, from what you've seen, what are some of the most important qualities of what you think a successful l&d professional or instructional designer should be? And I'm, you know, the reason I'm asking that, too, is I'm fascinated by your background, because I see, you know, you have you have you've done some business development, you do strategy, you have like, kind of an operational mindset, nuts, those are some of these things are not, I don't see, they're not typical like that I've seen. So I'd like to hear what your answer would be important qualities of a successful successful, l&d professional.

Liz Stefan  
I really appreciate that you are asking this question. And I do realize that I'm a little bit on the outside, right, because we are a vendor in this space. So it's not necessarily our place to preach, or what we say or I say doesn't, you know, it can easily be disregarded, because maybe this person is trying to sell me something. That being said, I will, however, express this and maybe some things might be a bit harsh. We, we myself, but myself and the team, we've spoken already to probably hundreds of learning and development professionals, and everybody kind of sits on a spectrum, right? So you have the people who are so far ahead. And they have so much space in the budget and in the way that their leadership team has understood the purpose of l&d that they can experiment, they can do a lot of really cool things, they can work with bi, they can look at data, they have the flexibility to implement AI, they can do magic, basically, they can build a spaceship, right. And you have people on the other end of the spectrum, who, for various reasons, cannot or would not go outside of the standard, or basics of what we think of when we when we think about learning, right? So just counting number of hours of learning per year, and being happy that this is the metric that they have to deliver to leadership. And that's it. And I think I personally think that in whatever situation you are, you should always question what value you're adding as an l&d professional, because your purpose and the purpose of the business function itself is to serve, but to serve redundantly, purposefully, right. So you can't just be there because you organize. You're the person who organizes training, who does the scheduling, who does the compliance reports. And that's it. It's sort of like my like a little mouse, just, I've done all my scheduling for this week, I'm done. That's it. If you're there as a learning and development professional who's supposed to move the business forward, you're supposed to understand what that means. So having business acumen understanding the at least the basics of the industry, that you're operating in understanding what the what business growth means. And figuring out to the level of KPIs understanding, what are the KPIs that you as an early professional should be influencing their number of hours per learning of learning per year, per employee per year or not, in my opinion, of business KPI are actually not even in my opinion. They're not any a business game. Yeah, they're an indie KPI. And it sometimes feels good to say that we've increased this number, but it doesn't actually prove that you've added value to the business.

Luis Malbas  
Nice, you know, and it's, it's I think it's really interesting, because on Monday, I think you saw a little bit of in crooks episode, where I think that that was the gist of sort of what he's saying is kind of with his operational mindset, you know, bringing value to the business. That is something that all you know, instructional designers and l&d professionals should keep that like as one of the top priorities. And if you're not, then you're basically not doing your job, right. So, you know, with that, how about this question? How do your skills and business process automation, business strategy, Business Development, Operations Manager, management, how has that helped you as an l&d professional, why are those things important? So

Liz Stefan  
I have a couple of components or ways of answering this question. One of them is, I think I have formed a habit of working back from the objective. And I like that. And I like to believe that l&d professionals are also working as an industry towards that goal, right? You need to figure out what is the thing that you're going to impact and work back from that always have objectives in mind. And if it's not in the scope of l&d, just don't do it politely decline, whatever, explain why, argue your case as best possible. But don't just deliver training because someone is asking you to, you need to understand they need to understand whether that training would be the thing that adds value. Because sometimes maybe those people are better left in production, they're probably making more money for the company just being left to do their work. shoddy as it is, or whatever thing you thought you were going to improve with that training. So one thing is just focusing on the objectives and working back from that. Another thing is I, especially the larger the company, I think there's a matter of efficiency of scale. If your technology or processes, the way you're doing things is sort of hindering you, or it's making it hard for you to focus on the objectives. And one very, very basic example is if you're stuck scheduling training, just like talking to trainers, replacing people in the session, going back and forth issuing certificates, whatever, some companies, a lot of companies still do this quite manually. If you're stuck doing essentially admin work. There's very little space in your mind and in your schedule as an r&d professional to do value adding work, which is analysis of training needs consultancy work, understanding the business coming up with new things, cleaning up the catalog, oh, my god, cleaning up the catalog is not done frequently or, you know, big enough at a big enough scale. Another thing is stakeholder management. I think that l&d as a as a sub function of HR historically has not sell fabricated very well, it's hard for l&d people to, again, my opinion, and this is the thing that I've observed from speaking to l&d professionals a lot. A lot of l&d professionals find it hard to prove value from where they're sitting in that context in that situation, and argue for better investment or reallocation of risks or courses or experimenting, because it's hard to get out of your like tiny paradigm of on delivering courses, library training, whatever. And thinking about impact and arguing that case, and presenting it in a way that the business understand it not in the way that you as an l&d Professional think about it. And I have, I have also, for example, just recently, I spoke to someone, we also do consultancy, while we're building a platform, and more often than not, we tell people that maybe they're not ready for this or that type of technology, or it's not worth investing in it. Because they have bigger problems to fix. For example, one of our customers who actually just bought the platform in December in need, we showed them a cute mock up that we have for social learning, XP, user generated content and so on. This is one of the directions that we want to go into. And they said, Oh, we needed to be sure when is it going to be live? I want this. And I asked them, Why do you want it? Well, because we want our people to start creating content and job aids and and so on. And I said, you don't need technology for that. First, you need something that relates to culture. Why don't you test it out? First, why don't you see if one team has this behavior already, if not, try to encourage it, you can do this without any technology, try to encourage it and see if it sticks. See if you're the kind of organization that could potentially become you know, user generated content driven. Review rate debate and so on. If you're not that kind of organization, you don't need to spend money on the you know, I don't know what kind of fascinating Alex be, you're probably not going to use most of it. And you're going to be paying for what, two years, however long that contract is. It's a matter of prioritizing the things that you need to solve for. And working on the, I guess harder problems. more intently, right?

Luis Malbas  
Very interesting. Now, are you going to be at any any? Are you going to be at any of the Expos coming up? Like at ATD or at DevLearn or anything like that?

Liz Stefan  
I just came back from learning technologies in London. I don't know. But I will. I will see.

Luis Malbas  
Nice nice. You know, I got to read some of these comments that were coming through a macro saying well said well said Liz, we believe that just ticking boxes when it comes to l&d and suicide for the people of the organization and eventually the organization itself. Julia had said service minded leadership Thanks Liz versus the notorious pencil whipping had been trudging uphill against the bare minimum mentality for a while incremental progress only very recently. Um Cindy says we share a similar philosophy with Ellen DS corporate value. Let's see Mac followed up here agreed we need to get the business to help us help them bring in the rod from cradle to grave. Do you know Mac you must know Mac Julia says definitely agree training for the sake of placating an HR checklist is not servicing the company or agency here we can deal with regulatory requirements that have made training on a product to certification requirements. So so far needs analysis has been negative before I finished saying the two words. Wow, Julia. Ouch. Veni saying that's very important. Choose and use tech to super boost already existing behaviors. Fantastic comments all around. Thanks, everybody. Now, this is great. So let me ask you, you know, we're getting on time. So I'm gonna ask you a few more questions. I'm interested in Nifty learning. So when was it that you decided to start the company and I guess you have a platform? I didn't know that. I suspect, you know, it's great that you're mentioning that you're a vendor and stuff and, and sort of being transparent about that. But why did you decide to do that? You were at Xerox for a number of years. And then was it like there that you said, look at the landscape of things I you know, there needs to be this solution. Or what why did why did how did nifty learning come about?

Liz Stefan  
So, ironically, I did not look at the landscape of things. But it turned out, it worked out in the end. So I, we started, we founded nifty on the day that I quit my job at Xerox and the story is kind of like this, I initially wanted it. So Xerox had a very well, it's, it's called conduent now has a large division that just does managed learning services. And I was part of that division. At some point, I was a learning solution specialist. I was designing processes for pharma and aerospace and professional services customers fortune 500. And so it was the work was being was being done very manually. And I said this is very frustrating. It takes a lot of people too much time to just book stuff in the calendar. Little did I know it wasn't a matter of there are no LMSs out there, it was a matter of giant corporations move slowly with tech acquisitions. So I said I we need to build something that helps us at Xerox be more efficient in the way we service our customers. And that's what that was a las learning administration system. I proposed this to the management, I told them give me X amount of money six months, I will build a solution that you can replicate and resell to your customers it was met with we already dumped quite a good chunk of money into this and that solution. And the implementations were like a year and a half in and not yet finished. And they said we are definitely never going to start building something internally and doing this when we are so close to making it. Ironically, even after I left years later, they still had not finished the implementation with the giant provider. The prototype for NIS T was dashboard, we call it the Eric report, it was my biggest customer then it was basically a dashboard form of 27 filters that would show you all the learning requests happening and moving through the pipeline in real time with budgets, with tasks with blockers with timing with sl A's and so on. And I was frustrated because they wouldn't let me do it. I was very naive back then I didn't realize that you can't just do intrapreneurship you have to have the blessings of all the forefathers of the business. And I said, Okay, fine, I'll just go build it myself. And on the day that I quit, I attended a startup event and I said, Hi, my name is Chris and I just quit my job. I want to build the solution for this industry. And no good deed goes unpunished. Thank you, Julia.

Luis Malbas  
That's a great story, Liz. That's pretty impressive. That's really impressive. And

Liz Stefan  
pretty impactful. We started job on but I was sort of sneakily going into it because I wanted to learn how to build a software product. And that's why I say we were in stealth mode for a couple of years. The after doing it after validating including one of Xeroxes customer, we did like a smoke smoke test and we asked people hey, we have this new LMS you want to book a demo, and one of Xeroxes customers, who was one of my customers book, the demo and I told him, you know, we actually don't have anything but why did you book and he said, Well, Eve with outsourcing and the LMS is and all the solutions that we have in place, work is still too heavy, and it can be streamlined further, and we would be interested in a solution. And I was pleasantly surprised, because that was a form of initial validation. And then we've never looked back since. adulation, we thank you, we discovered actually, that just after deciding that this is the thing we want to do for the foreseeable future, we discovered that there are actually 1000 LMS solutions out there. So we need to figure out the more painful aspects of the LMS user. And when I say user, I don't mean learner, I mean, the learning and development team. And we discover that even though on the learners side, the best, let's say 2050 LMS is are pretty comparable. On the admin side, they are not actually they're very, very poor, because everybody's been building with the learner in mind. But to service the people who unlock the learning for the organization, this is something that not too many people had thought about. And we said, okay, not only are we going to build a learner facing experience, that's absolutely decent, and on par with everybody, but we want to make it easy for the l&d Professional, to just like, have order in their thinking in the Learning Plan and the intentions in the strategy and so on. And this is what we've been striving to do. And we have been doing ever since.

Luis Malbas  
Very interesting, huh? Well, um, you know, it's, it definitely intrigues me now, I'm gonna have to take a look, I didn't realize going to your website that you actually had a platform. So, so that's interesting. And then so we'll get the word out there. Now, I do also want to just talk a little bit and I've got to wrap it up pretty soon here. But, um, your l&d Spotlight podcast, you know, I've learned it sounds, you know, it seems it's very kind of genuine sounding podcast that seems you know, authentic. And the notes that you provide are really, really wonderful on that. What are some things that you learned from your guests on that spotlight pot podcast? Because that's kind of was your intention? I saw you had Clark Quinn on there who I know and you know, some other guests what what what are what are things you've learned by hosting that podcast? So

Liz Stefan  
I'm funny that you mentioned it. So Clark Quinn, he's he's the one who gave me a phrase that I keep repeating whenever I have a conversation about lnd being focused on measurement. He says that lnd has been a faith based industry, or what basically since the beginning, right, because we didn't we I say we right, we defaulted to training, then the LMS came up. And then we were like, nobody go to classroom anymore. Let's just shove stuff online, right. And for the task, however, 20 years, we've been in the situation where most companies either deliver one off stuff, or they do online, and now more recently, we do blended, and now we have Alex P, the Netflix of learning, and so on and whatever. And now AI, obviously, the there's only so much that the brain can actually take for learning to be effective, and to not have been a waste. I think a lot of the most, I guess, surprising, refreshing the surprising thing that I learned is that you can't you can't force this massive, massive chunk of information and learning that learners receive all the time. just force it because you have the technology and you have the intention and the strategy, you can go around the fact that humans learn at the speed of human rights. There's neuroscience that tells us about neuroplasticity, there's behavior adoption, and the fact that the behavior isn't just like acquired in however many days like Charles Duhigg says, right? It's behavior is a thing that you work overtime to change, and then you just have to maintain it, and so many other things and actually have a lot more episodes about the guests, the learning the action of learning itself, right, the retention, the transfer, the application, the measurement of application and so on. These are deep, not details. These are very essential components of workplace learning effectiveness. And they these are the things that an l&d professional, in my opinion should think about whenever they strategize whenever they start planning whenever they start throwing budgets at things. It was so so eye opening and I didn't realize how much complexity there actually is in the act of learning. And how little unfortunately is being minded when you Many companies plan their learning, you know, like their yearly learning plan or whatever, it's, it's unfortunate. And I really want us to as an industry to start thinking about the human who's both doing the work and needs to acquire knowledge to do the work. These are the human is the essential component, you simply can't think of people as numbers like contact libraries, throw him in training, whatever and expect results you you have to consider the individual every single time. And unfortunately, it's very effort intensive. But the companies and there's a McKinsey article that's really interesting about this that says that companies that invest not just in profit, but people and profit, and they do it religiously, actually have I don't know how much more like twice in sales or something. It's because you if you focus on the human on their skills, their comfort or psychological safety, the timeliness of learning, and so on, if you focus on these people, and you treat them, right, because corporate culture is nasty, then they will produce results. But you have to do the work, you have to invest the energy to do it properly.

Luis Malbas  
Wow, that's wonderful. Liz, I'm so glad that we're getting to talk to you because especially as a founder and CEO of an organization like yours, it is it's good to get like I think your perspective on things and hear about what your focuses are. And I have one last question for you that veni just submitted and I think you're definitely qualified to. To answer this one. I'm really interested to hear your reply. What do you think is the number one problem that l&d should solve for

Liz Stefan  
us? Hi, Manny. So happy to see you here. So oh, I can't I can't pick one. Can I pick two? over two? So I'm gonna say the, I think that there are two things, I guess the problem that they should be solving is positioning. And in positioning, I'm gonna put, what's my purpose as an l&d? How do I measure impact? How do I engage stakeholders and so on? The way I present myself the way I handle change, management, just positioning, right, it's very, very important to understand if you have a seat at the table, if not, what you need to get what you need to do to get there, how to argue your case better, and so on. So I guess positioning, what I would like us as an industry to solve for, and this is my, if you will, my personal goal and trying to figure out if you can even mathematically no scientifically prove ROI of learning. So if I say I input this much, I guess budget, energy time, resources, whatever into my people, do I get this much more output, profit, business growth, sales, customer satisfaction, product quality, whatever? This is, I think, something that in any case, we're all striving for as an industry, and I'm seeing really good signs, I think AI is gonna be a big unlocking factor. Let's say that for the individual, I think it's a matter for the individual and the profession. I think it's a matter of positioning, understanding where you are planning for where you want to get, and having a tactical approach.

Luis Malbas  
Nice. Excellent. Wow, that's great stuff. Thank you so much, Liz, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for your support with TL DC and, and being part of the membership. It's really, really kind of an honor to have you within the community. You had some brilliant insights. And I'm so glad that we, we had got to have this conversation so more folks will get to know you. So I'll be formatting this video, we'll be releasing it to everybody out on YouTube and everywhere. And then also, the podcast version will go out and I get a surprisingly, number high number of downloads for the podcast. So we'll spread the word about about Liz and and nifty learning and the l&d Spotlight podcast. I did see I think Julia had posted the link to the podcast and check again nifty learning.io forward slash spotlight dash podcast. And yes, there you go. Julie is wrapping it up with boom ROI is the key for healthy survival survival in the corporate ocean. Agreed. All right,

Liz Stefan  
and the closing. Sure. So I just wanted to praise you for the work that you're doing and I think I didn't touch on it earlier but I was I wanted to get to this point. I think we are under estimate as an industry, but also in the way we strategize is l&d. Right, I think l&d People underestimate the power of learning from peers. It's so organic, that it almost goes unnoticed. This is probably the most, probably the most impactful where you learn because it's a combination of on the job, asking for feedback, feeling a bit of support from someone who's giving you advice, teach others is basically the the cream right of effectiveness of learning. And I think this is the kind of thing that l&d People can figure out ways to encourage more have become some sort of network or some sort of connector between people who share interests or have questions or have doubts, experts in juniors, thought leaders and people who don't know anything about the topic and so on. I think it's such a attendees positioned in such a beautiful place that they have the key to unlocking community learning. And I really appreciate the fact that there are communities focused on learning because I think the best way for us as an industry to grow is also to learn from each other from practical examples, from, you know, battle scars and trying to do better every day with encouragement from peers. So I congratulate you for that.

Luis Malbas  
Thank you, Liz. No, and it is it is it's, it's totally true. Every single person that I talked to the stories are always fantastic, and more than anything, what I also love is I getting to understand l&d culture better, like maybe more so than anybody like, because there is a culture for for people that are in this industry. And we're, it's very diverse, lots of different people and but there is there is this common stream amongst everybody and I love being able to, to, to monitor that and watch it and understand it a little better. And and then of course, Liz just meeting somebody like you, was it there was a comment from who was it? Oh, yeah. From venue said, we need more of these stories of female founders in edtech. I totally agree with that. I totally agree with that. And, and so I feel honored that you were on the broadcast today. I'm sorry that we have to close it out now. But Liz, thank you. And hopefully we'll hear from you again. Maybe in the future. If I have anything going on. I will definitely hit you up and see if you might be interested in coming on and, and being a part of an event or something. And so with that, everybody have a great day and thanks again Friday, we do have a new guest another guest and I can't remember her first time I think it's Chrystia Hennessey more on the VR AR side of things. So that one should be fascinating as well. And and then also for all of anybody who attended the games and gamification event, I'm formatting all those videos now. So I'll have them on our website available students for for members to enjoy.

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