Goal vs Approach: Global Differences and Similarities in Instructional Design featuring Cara North & Tom McDowall

In this episode we talked with Tom McDowall and Cara North about Global Differences and Similarities in Instructional Design. Since Instructional Design originated in the US in the 1940s, how has it evolved globally? Which brings up more interesting questions, including how technology has impacted ID, the origins of Learning Experience Design (a relatively recent shift in L&D) and even how social media and internet culture has become a factor in how we train.

A great episode with two of the web's most popular L&D professionals, give it a listen.

Luis Malbas  
Go have fun. That's awesome. Okay. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the training learning and development community. I'm so glad that you're here with us today. We're missing our primary guests. But I have another wonderful guest that is here to talk with us. Karen north, a lot of you I'm sure know who Kara is. And I'd actually reached out to cara a few days ago and asked her to sort of join in on this one, because it is a really interesting conversation. And it's something that I have thought about for a long time, just historically, just meeting people from like, you know, the Netherlands and UK and just sort of getting their takes on instructional design, and even seeing how the term learning experience designer has come into play in in l&d. And, and so yeah, I'm glad that Kara is here, because she is a learning experience designer. And hopefully, Tom will jump in, he was having some technical problems. And Crowdcast wouldn't let him turn his camera and mic on. So hopefully, he'll get that resolved soon. But what I'm going to do is what I did is I just put together in the ask a question, Eric, just some topics that that, that I'm hoping we can discuss. And ideally, Tom will be in here soon. You can see his comment. He says he's working on it, trying to get in. So fingers crossed that we'll have Tom here. I'm sorry. But, Kara, if I were to ask you some of these things, we think you might be able to handle some of the the responsibility of of discussing some of these topics.

cara north  
I haven't even looked just as long as people realize I am not Tom McDowell and I'm not giving his perspective on things. But yeah, I'm happy to discuss.

Luis Malbas  
Sure. Awesome, and I'm so grateful that you're here. So um, real quick, Kara. Let's see. You're a consultant now. Right?

cara north  
Yeah, it's been since June. So I went full time out on my own in June. And it's been a wild ride but really fulfilling it and fun. So before that I worked in corporate and also higher education, doing a little bit of, of everything, but running your own businesses. Rewarding yet also draining because I feel like I work more now than I did when I had a full time job. But it's it's very rewarding.

Luis Malbas  
Wow. And so it's is it the learning camera.com? How do you it is

cara north  
yes, it is the learning camera because I'm an alumni of the Ohio State University side of it the done there. I'm just kidding. I don't know why I thought that was a good idea, honestly. But

Luis Malbas  
oh, no, I do it for everything. DTL DC V AI DC? Makes it easier to get a domain for it? Yeah. All right. So let's start off with just a really, really basic one, which is probably not that basic at all. But the concept of okay, so instructional design originated in, I think the 50s. Right. I don't even say before that, before that. And it was a construct of the US military, from what I understand. And and so, you know, this conversation is relevant, because how is it that this American sort of, I guess it's kind of a product or is it was produced here from from our military sort of has become, you know, the predominant idea behind learning and development, but it's now evolved, it's gone around to the rest of the world, I would, you know, I can't wait to hear from Tom when he jumps in to talk about his perspective on it in the UK. I know that people like in the Netherlands, how it's become kind of a learning experience design there. And that's kind of spread out. And even other places like in Asia and Africa, I would love to hear how culturally they have kind of interpreted or adjusted to this American, you know, construct, but first basic thing, instructional design versus learning experience design. Kara, do you have like, any sort of idea around that? When did you decide to become our change your sort of your focus from instructional design to learning experience design?

cara north  
Okay, that's a lot to unpack. I love it. All right. So the first question about kind of instructional design versus learning experience design, you know, for me when I was first kind of doing this work, and you know, I, some of my background is, you know, I kind of started as a classroom trainers, I was a stand up trainer, before I transitioned into elearning, LMS stuff, all of that. So kind of my first experience with instructional design was kind of that, you know, Joe direct instruction, if you will. And if you go back into the literature, if you go back into like the history of kind of this formalized, systematic approach of training, that's what it was right? It was like, you know, major, everyone had a baseline and getting them out into production as soon as possible. And so that's how this instructional design, you know, kind of got started, Kim, I'm not taking the bait on your comment. If you want to see more about that, go over to Twitter, and follow Tim Slade and see what he said about that. Anyway. But when I was really thinking about learning experience design, in its, I don't know if you you knew this or not, we actually have a learning experience design book coming out next year. So

Luis Malbas  
I know what I think I have heard you mentioned that, that congratulations.

cara north  
Thank you. The timing is kind of apropos. But you know, I talk a lot about it, obviously in the book. But the first time I heard learning experience design was back in 2016, when I was a grad student at Ohio State and the way that I understood it to kind of be operationalized was about making sure that it was I in this is the way that I define it is the content plus the context. Right. So it's not just that instruction that I think for years, people are just like, and I think that's also a battle that we face in our in our organizations now. Right? It's like just throw content at them in their training, just throw content at them and their training. And that's not necessarily the best approach, right? Because people need to understand, Okay, here's this content, but how do I apply it to what I need to do? Do I need to act on it now? Is it something that I can build towards? Is it something that, you know, is a nice to know, but I personally don't really need to execute on it. And so when I kind of had this aha moment, and I had a friend in my PhD program with me, who was really big into emotional design, and researching that, and I really like to think about, you know, how does this kind of make people feel like, are they able to apply it, you know, and in going through that, so it's kind of, I think this hodgepodge of, it's not good enough just to have content, but we have to relate the content back to what it is that people need to do, which again, that is not a new approach. I don't want to say that that's revolutionary, the human performance, folks have been beating that drum a long time. But I think when technology entered the picture, I think people forgot about that, right? And so now, it's like, it's not just all in a classroom, it's not just this one phased approach of someone talking at you. But it's about, okay, how can I get this content in, you know, real time for me, or, you know, a time that I need it, that I'm able to take it, apply it into what I do, and bonus points, if I'm able to practice what it is that you're telling me to do in a simulated environment, or get feedback on that in any way. And to me, that's what learning experience design is, is way more in my mind holistic of, you know, how do we learn as humans? And how can we take this content and apply it to the work that we do? And so that's pretty much what my entire book is, it's this whole process of how I take from a request all the way to the end product and taking people through that journey and sharing lots of Fells, but also some successes.

Luis Malbas  
Love it. No, no, this is perfect. You know, it's especially since you are writing that book, I guess that I did a really good thing by inviting you to do. So how about the idea of the focus in instructional design is more on the instruction or on the creation of content, right? And then also in learning experiences if the focus is more on the learner. So

cara north  
though, I would argue the task, I will go a step further beyond just the person but what it is that they need to do. So I I'm really harping on the task and even going back to, again, classic literature in the field, you know, I'm David Merrill's principles and instructions. Again, he's been beating that drum a very long time, right? It's about what it is that people do relating those tasks back. So I'll stop because here's the man of the hour.

Tom McDowall  
I wouldn't go that far after all that mess.

Luis Malbas  
Hey, Tom, how's it going? I mean, I like it. You have a VR headset behind you, you've got you know, just all this technology, and it's just really coming through now. Like,

Tom McDowall  
it's all broken, literally everything.

Luis Malbas  
Love it. So have you been it? Were you listening at all to anything that we had going there? Because kind of wanting to get your take on that too? Like how? Because I actually let me look at your I need to look at your profile real quick to see I know you said you were the chief learning geek head of learning design. So you are more focused on the learning side of things than the instructional side. Is that Is that accurate?

Tom McDowall  
I guess kind of I'll be honest, I'm not someone Who's ever drawn a huge heavy line of distinction between the two? I feel like that way lies, potentially a lot of navel gazing, and kind of staring at the stars. What am I? Why are we here? Why do we do what we do? Which is interesting, but not always a productive use of time when someone else is paying for it anyway. But yeah, I guess I would say I focus more on learning than instruction in the, in maybe the academic sense is the wrong way to put it. But that's how I'm going to word it. If someone else were to define someone who knew more about it would define what I would do. That's probably what they would define it as

Luis Malbas  
nice. Okay. All right. Now, Tom, let me get let me ask you this one. So from your side of things in l&d, and, you know, having an instructional design background, analytical versus creative for you, where do you think, say you are you sit there and generally in the environments that you work in is the focus.

Tom McDowall  
So I actually think this is I feel like this is less shaped by what we do, and just how individuals do it. So I sit very squarely in the analytical space. So I can be creative within a very clearly predefined framework, where creativity is supposed to happen. Hand me a blank sheet of paper and sort of cry under a desk for a week. But what I found is the best way to do that is to hire creative people. So I found the best teams are not one or the other, they are some combination of the two. And I tend to find, and this is a wild generalization. That sure Pete, some people will agree some people won't, is that those who still go I'm an instructional designer, tends to be more on the analytical side of things. And the kind of learning design LX D space, I found tends to trend towards the more creative side of things. And that's not universal. I think you look at people like Donald Clark, who is I think, undeniably very analytical in his space. He but he's quite difficult to put into any one of those roles. So I don't think it's a universal thing, I think it is, you can you can sit on either end of that spectrum. I don't think they're sort of mutually exclusive. But for me, I know that I, I'm best in that analytical space. And the best way to come up with a creative solution for me is to hire in a truly creative person to bounce ideas off and kind of I'll curtail, they're off the wall idea. And they'll stop me doing something really boring.

Luis Malbas  
Nice. How about you, Kara? Where do you where do you sort of sit in that side? And also, like, as far as being a consultant and what where do you see the the focus? Or like the demand for your services? Is it more on the analytical side? Or is it on the creative side?

cara north  
Yeah, so kind of like Tom, I mean, I like being in the analytical side. But I also feel like if I don't have, I'll say, analytical control, right, so I if I'm not able to deep dive and kind of get in there, I'm not able to come up with a creative solution. And often the devils in the details, right, so being able to go through, you know, I think one of my favorite projects I've ever worked on, I call it my magnum opus, I don't know if I'll ever make anything is cool. My little multiple choice mayhem game, for example, you should have seen the content that I got for that it was just manuals of do's and don'ts of how to write multiple choice. And I was like, who's gonna read this? And who, how's this going to stick? And you know, it just so happened the way I kind of came up with the solution there was, you know, I just couldn't get it out of my mind. And I was approaching the deadline. And I was like, you know, I need to get get something together. But it's like, how do I make this creative? And I'm just flipping through the TV channels, and Ripley's Believe It or Not, was on and I was like, Oh, my gosh, what if I break rules writing questions using content that I'm pretty sure nobody knows, random facts from Ripley's Believe it or not, and then that's how it it came together. So sometimes you just have to, I don't know, sometimes you just also have to kind of let yourself go and let your mind wander, right. I mean, that's usually how I come up with some of the best solutions. But from a consulting perspective, it's funny you mentioned this, I had a conversation with one of our business coaches this week. And you know, if if a client doesn't want me to do that, I'm probably not the best fit for them. Because to me, they want to pay me for a while. what I do best, I don't want to waste their time, I don't want to waste their money. And then vice versa, I don't want to waste my time, either. So, you know, the best clients, for me, are ones that are partners and want to partner with me, gives me kind of the keys to the kingdom. Let me kind of walk through ask the questions, don't get annoyed with that kind of stuff. And, you know, I've turned work away, I've turned to work away, that's guaranteed money of like, hey, build this for us, or do this for us. And I just wasn't the right fit. And that's okay. But that's just my own moral compass. And that's what makes me feel good.

Luis Malbas  
Right? Okay, so universally, it sounds like the analytical side is still really important, regardless of being an instructional designer or learning experience designer. And I know like, basically, I mean, everything, all the conversations we have on CLDC nowadays are, you know, are basically kind of related to career in these in these days. But so, if you are somebody that is looking to be an instructional designer, an emphasis on Analytics, you would say is key.

Tom McDowall  
Oh, definitely, I think otherwise, you you can make really cool and exciting stuff, but it probably won't do much if it doesn't have that underlying foundation.

Luis Malbas  
Nice, nice. Okay, now how about with tools? Um, you know, the origins of instructional design, whatever, in the 40s 50s they didn't have smartphones, they didn't have, you know, computers, Macs and PCs and all of that stuff. Has there been? Is it how, like your focus on tools, you know, the any difference between what you might focus on using as an instructional designer versus maybe a learning experience designer, or I'd even like to hear if there's a difference between, you know, Tom, what you use and Kara what what you use? And I don't know, Tom, do you have like a formal instructional design background?

Tom McDowall  
I did. I wouldn't say a formal instructional design background. No, I did some some l&d courses, which are brand is the two years of my career that I wasted. And then started delivering training and went oh, this is what it is. I see now. Right? Yeah. So yeah, it's much more of a figure it out as you go Joby. Yeah. And

Luis Malbas  
that's interesting to me, because meals floor who coined the term learning experience design had no formal instructional design background at all. So, you know, it kind of makes sense. But how about is there a difference in the types of tools that the two of you use? I don't think you've, I don't know if you've ever sat down with each other and talked about, oh, I use this tool, and I use this tool. But can you go over that a little bit?

Tom McDowall  
I mean, the tool I spend the most time in if I'm honest, it's probably word. It's, it's where I script everything, do almost every storyboard that that's moving to figma. Now very exciting. I've got the most text based figma boards anyone's ever seen. Yeah, I, I don't think that ever when we talk about tools, I think we'd like to use authoring tools, right. But I would say a solid 90% of any project is spent in Word bit of Excel, maybe a PowerPoint, when it gets all visual and stuff. And then only that last little bit of development goes into any of the what you might call exciting tools, whether it's on the storyline, or evolve or chameleon. And for me, they're much more of a which one fits that which fits, fits the need fits the client. And often it's the client, the fitting the client, that's really the important thing there. So I would say my tools are the Office Suite, figma pen and paper, because I like pen and paper still. I would say that's where the vast majority of my my job happens.

Luis Malbas  
Wow, that's very interesting. I'm sort of surprised, Tom, because, you know, I also, it always seems like you're like on top of like the tech stuff and that you would have like the latest and greatest. But

Tom McDowall  
yeah, and that's the thing. I think that stuff is awesome. But it is the last 10% It's the development and delivery. It isn't where all the instructional design happens as such. Yeah, most of that is conversation planning notes scripting. And to be honest, whether it's word Google Docs, whatever it might be. Can you write on it great. It's the perfect instructional design tool. It's it's kind of it for me anyway.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. How about you Kara?

cara north  
Yeah, I would actually agree in my my granny had a saying it was actually dating advice to teenage Cara but it also fits for this is you know, just because it looks good doesn't mean it has substance. And you know, I think too often with tools we want to make something pretty and flashy and whatever but if the contents not right, what's the point so much like Tom a lot of my time is spent. I use I don't use word I'm a Google Oh, Gal. So I use Google Docs, I use Google Slides as my primary storyboarding tool that I use. And then, as far as like building out different things, I have an Adobe Creative Cloud account. So I use Adobe stock for a lot of stuff. But that's where I get a lot of my stock images from. But ultimately, I mean, it's, it's the alignment on the content, and then making the content really speak to again, going back to what it is that someone needs to do, what's the task? How does it apply to their job, etc. And, you know, couple jobs ago, when I was in manufacturing, I was tasked to build out a boot camp for a brand new machinist. But there was one problem, I didn't have a machine for them to practice on, it was a million dollar piece of equipment, they're like, we're not giving you carte blanche to let people screw that up. So in that sense, we had to really think about, you know, what can we kind of simulate versus what can we build hands on, right? And, you know, some of the problem solving solutions we made in that that setting. Probably some of my favorite I think I'll ever have in my career. I mean, we even had a spinning plate that one member the team had built to simulate putting a part on the rotating axis of, of the machine to save them from going out again, on the floor. And, and all of that. So really, to me, it's really focusing in what is the content, how's the best way to get it to get it across? Because I think that that's also another symbol for a lot of newer folks is really determining the proper modality not everything should be any learning, period. Even if you think it should have maybe, maybe not. So, you know, I think you learning as a delivery modality not like the golden nugget of truth, if you will. So even things like that. But yeah, most of the time I'm in, in the G Suite, products for most of the work that I do.

Luis Malbas  
Nice. So just to kind of highlight that your career as an instructional designer, you've has the so using something like Word or Google Docs, that's just kind of been a consistent thing. Nothing has changed since you've been since you started, right? That's always been kind of the emphasis is being able to kind of write first, and then just proceed from there. That's the majority of your, of, of view, sort of your creation. That's really interesting. Alright, cool. How about I'm working with SMEs? I'm sort of like to, because there's a sort of a cultural difference to there. So this one is a little more specific to this topic. But do you think, Tom, that it might be different for you working with an SME versus like Kara working for an SME here in stateside?

Tom McDowall  
Oh, absolutely. I think the I think the whole area of SME relationships and management is the area in our entire industry, whether your idea Alex De whatever, is just massively under covered under explored and under talks about, especially the cultural differences. And it's interesting, because I think so often, we have this kind of impression of All the Worlds really close together now. So we're all quite similar in the workplace and how we work and how we discuss. And that might be true of some places. It is not universally true. And it's very easy to blow up an otherwise really positive relationship by thinking everyone's like me. I say this, having done it many, many times. And certainly in the UK, there is a stark difference between the North and the South. And we have our famous north south divide, which is a class divide, accent divide, because often we can't understand what each other is saying. Things like that. But it's just there are different cuisines, different things that are acceptable and not acceptable in the workplace. Swearing is a fantastic example of that. If I've got a centre of London client, I would never swear in front of them, because chances are, it's not going to be acceptable in the workplace. If I have a client that's a bit more north of the country, I might be inclined to be a bit more relaxed with them because it's just the way they tend to communicate in the workplace. The same is true of a Japanese client, prime example people I'm working with at the moment, totally different workplace culture. You cannot go into in a jumper and relaxed and you know, someone wandering around the background is a big deal regardless of whether you're working at home. It's so important that you understand the cultural background you're going into in these SME relationships. I always talk about it in terms of forgotten the term EUR USD, that's awful. Currency, interpersonal currency, and making sure you've always got money in the bank when you're making an article Whatever it might be of them, and building that up over time. And a lot of that starts with those first interactions where you're just acknowledging the it doesn't have to be I acknowledge your culture, that obvious, but just a case of showing up early versus on time or wearing the right thing, or addressing them in the right way makes a huge difference. Okay, so that overlooked.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. And that's, that's pretty specific. I mean, Kara? How what do you think in the US for like, as far as working with SMEs? How much adjustment do you have to make when you're working in, in within an organization and, and adjusting to cultures?

cara north  
Yeah, it's interesting, I love where you went with that, Tom, I was actually gonna take a different spin, I was gonna use power dynamics of where people sit in the business where their levels are, you know, who do they know, politically in the organization? Right. So that's really kind of been my main thing that I look for is to how to navigate those appropriately. You know, one of my biggest failures, and this was one of my first projects I ever did is, you know, when I was at a company with a smirky logo, we'll leave it at that there was somebody who reached out, and they were four levels away from the CEO. And they had all this stuff that they wanted to put in this product. And I was, you know, the one that was doing the training, they're like, oh, it's going to be a huge contact driver quarter for everyone needs to know everything. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, here, I'm in Huntington, West Virginia, and I'm just like, no typing away. And I'm, oh my gosh, like, I'm like a corner office in Seattle. And I, you know, I had all these, like, you know, visions of grandeur in my head, right. And I made this mandatory training. And that was about 20 minutes during q4, which was the most busy time in the company. And it ended up on the back end and be in less than 1% of all contacts for that quarter. So when I got that little meeting, invite with my supervisor, on my calendar, I knew I knew Oh, my, I knew I was gonna get fired. Like, I just knew it. And so get on the call exchange pleasantries. And like, Yeah, about that, put that project you just did. Did you look at the numbers of that? And I'm like, Yeah. And she's like, Well, what happened? And I told her, I said, Well, this guy's four degrees away from CEO. And you know, he's very passionate. And she said, passions, good. But she said, processes better. And she said, you lacked the process out of it. She said, you're you. They're the subject matter expert, you're the process expert. And you are the gatekeeper between all that content is someone else's time on the other side, and you're supposed to filter all of that into something that you know, people can use. So she made this analogy of boiling the ocean and taking it down to a glass of water and taking the salt out. So that's your job. And she said, What have you learned from this message? Juanita asked more questions. She said, Yeah, she said, that's what you need to do from here on out. And she said, Let this be a lesson to you. And I was so lucky to have that during my early 20s. And I think that that's kind of been ingrained in us. So as I've moved up in, you know, learning leadership and working for myself, you know, I think I had a way stronger backbone, because I had that formative experience than if I hadn't. And then that was something I always tried to instill in the team as well, like, Hey, if you're getting pushback, come to me and lean to me. Let me use a resource. I loved what you said about the currency. Can I call it relational equity, but I think I like your term a little bit better than one. But yeah, so like, how can you rely on partnerships? How can you kind of figure things out, but on the other thing, too, is, you know, especially in the last few years, I go beyond the SMI. So this means like one source of information, but because I find so often sneeze are very far removed from the process, or they have so much experience. I've really been trying to drill down and actually talk to people that are doing the job. And you will be surprised how different narratives you get from those two. And so I think in between both of them somewhere is the truth. Right? So getting more information from that, I think is also been really critical to building better learning experiences for everybody.

Luis Malbas  
Right, right. No, that's great. Thanks for sharing. That's a that's a that's a good one. Oh, yeah. Terry's just mentioned emotional bank account. Yeah, from Stephen Covey. That's, that's, that's a that's a great thing. Okay, so last question. Gosh, we've already gone through our time, but I do want to ask this. How about your um, well, how about this? Gosh, there's so many good ones because I wanted to ask about salaries, but I won't do that. But have a function within the organization. Any difference there like as far as I mean, what you see care Here in the US where l&d sits within an organization versus Tom, where you see it, like, is it more related to, you know it or is it more related to HR? What do you got?

Tom McDowall  
I mean, I think this is always a tricky one. I still see a lot of l&d as a function of HR, which I fervently disagree with. They should be good friends, but definitely separate, because they do very different things. What however, I have seen, l&d teams complete be completely separate from HR and it just be a complete mess. Because often in organizations, l&d is a very junior function, compared to a lot of other areas of the business tends to get added on later, and then thinned out whenever there's not enough money around and then bulked out whenever there's a problem that needs fixing. And so it kind of has, it lacks a lot of leadership level people, a lot of organizations, people who can be given a budget and can actually spend it well, and manage it and engage in conversations at the board level. I think we have a lack of skill in that area, largely because we talk about nonsense, and no one cares about. See engagement, and things like that. But yeah, for me that you see it in both, and I don't think I've seen it done perfectly yet. But either could work, but I don't genuinely think r&d should be a function of HR, regardless of your approach to l&d. I think it is something separate.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. Is it universally for you like is that what you see it most related to? Is the HR department within the organizations you've worked with? Yeah,

Tom McDowall  
it's either that or it tends to sit within opposite operationalized departments. So for instance, either it's either one big monolithic HR and l&d people function that hits everyone with the same mandatory elearning hammer every 12 months, or it's the kind of this is your retail sales training team. This is your clean water operations team. This is your wastewater operations team. Which is fine, except you've then got several very siloed l&d teams all doing very similar stuff, and duplicating a lot of work. So neither one is perfect. And I'm sure there is a middle ground somewhere. But it's tricky to find, I would say in our in everyone's defense, it is not as easy as we often think it's going to be to set up a function within a business.

Luis Malbas  
Fascinating. How about you care? What have you seen?

cara north  
I've seen a little bit of everything. I mean, I've sat in many different settings and in my career, so my very first l&d role, I was in HR, and then I was in customer service, actually. And then in higher ed, I was a month I was just whatever the faculty said I was that day, oh, just say that. Yeah, I did. And then I moved over to operations. And I was also in it. And then I ended up in HR. So I've been all in a little bit there the entire time I spot on, I completely agree with you about what you said about you know, it'd be really difficult being in HR, because one, I think that I don't know about, you know, your experience, Tom, but I think currently united states, states, a lot of orgs people don't like HR. They have kind of this, like, they just like tense up and they're like, oh, my gosh, am I gonna lose my job. So there's like this kind of fear thing. And so, you know, really getting to like helping people and, you know, trying to help them grow and develop. I think that with that, you know, people maybe don't believe in l&d and an HR function in that way. They're like, Oh, well, what Yeah, I may say maybe using insignia on the row. There's kind of that weird connotation, there. But ultimately, my favorite department I've ever sat in was operations when I was in a manufacturing setting, and the reason being, because all of my peers lead the different operations, departments engineering, quality, environmental health, safety. And so the wonderful thing is, is when we were building a product, I was able to lean into them to get support for the product rollout for the product, workflow planning, so people could actually attend training Oh, that's really revolutionary, isn't it? No, just throwing it on their workplace of everything else they have to do actually scheduling and making time to take it was really critical for that. And so for me, that was my favorite spot to be in. And I really just enjoyed it just because there was such good synergy, but again, that was one experience. I'm not saying that that's generalized for any particular organization, but definitely that was my favorite when I sat in operations.

Luis Malbas  
I love it. Yeah, you know, chat has a great point here. Chats Anyone l&d as an HR tends to get squishy versus operations where it's about results. That's awesome. Chet, thank you. And Terry mentioned HR is still stuck in the education world. It's I totally Yeah, totally get that.

Tom McDowall  
I mean, he was still stuck in the SCAP people's pants off. Well, to be honest. Whenever someone says you need to have a conversation with HR, but it's never attached to a positive thing. Right? I've never had a look. I'm not saying everyone that works in HR is inherently scary, but the concept of you know, let's face it, it's hiring a job asking for a job, something money related, getting sacked. That's, that's when someone from HR shows up in your office. It's never a Hi, I'm just swinging by with cupcakes for a chat. It's, it could be though, if you're an HR make that happen. People will like you more.

Luis Malbas  
Right? So it just sounds like maybe in your world in the UK, Tom that it tends to like l&d tends to be more sort of HR related. Versus Kara. You've been all over the place. And I've seen it too. I've seen l&d under marketing, I've seen l&d under sales, which was terrible for those poor people that were working there. But yeah, that's, that is so incredibly interesting. And it feels like we can talk about that for a while with a bunch of people. I mean, you know, between Kristen and Terry chat, it'd be, you know, seems like a great conversation to have. All right, well gone over our time. I'm gonna go ahead and wrap it up. I want to thank you guys for this because I love this perspective from you. Because I was just imagining, like, if we were to talk to Clos about this stuff, we would probably get like, I don't know, it just wouldn't have been as fun it would just be a budget. Well, anyway, but um, so I get to you. So remember this once you are Clos or something like that, you know, remember those days when you were talking to Louisa CLDC about the real stuff because this is this is really really good, good. This has been a great conversation. Alright, so thanks, everybody for showing up. Let's see next week. What do we got? We got that graphic design for instructional design event happening on Friday, October 7, go to the to dc.com if you want to register for that one. That's gonna be fun. We have six speakers and we're going to be just talking about a bunch of graphic designs stuff because speed, you know, like, that's definitely important in both the instructional design and the learning experience, design worlds. It's all just about that design element. And with that, I'm going to close it out. Thanks again. And I'm looking forward to talking to YouTube and everybody else again soon. Bye everyone.

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